tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post890961488084298865..comments2023-11-30T10:11:42.899+01:00Comments on Eclipse and Java Blog by Michael Scharf: Why is RCP, EMF, p2, databinding... so hard to learn?Michael Scharfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16708708879318235495noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-42573181512124638632009-08-28T04:07:44.250+02:002009-08-28T04:07:44.250+02:00Hello Shawn,
I agree that EMF and GMF will take i...Hello Shawn,<br /><br />I agree that EMF and GMF will take initial time to learn. <br /><br />EMF gives lot of re-usable features which you can make use in your projects. Otherwise, you are re-inventing the wheel always. <br /><br />In software development, the key to success in future is the ability to learn and execute projects faster and efficiently. EMF and GMF are frameworks which helps for that.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MadhuMadhuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05191409900046165475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-65147675128961048202009-08-28T03:59:37.931+02:002009-08-28T03:59:37.931+02:00I have been developing commercial eclipse-based pr...I have been developing commercial eclipse-based products for 6 years and I generally avoid using technologies like EMF and GMF because of their steep learning curve and because after I leave someone less experienced will have to maintain the application. I lean toward the KISS (Keep-It-Simple- Stupid) design pattern.Shawn Spiarshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915140177370615645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-18471926907993053442009-05-31T11:23:08.177+02:002009-05-31T11:23:08.177+02:00EMF is a baby compared to GMF. ;-)
From my experi...EMF is a baby compared to GMF. ;-)<br /><br />From my experience:<br /><br />When you come to the web page of EMF, M2T, M2M and similar projects you don't know what you're looking at. What's the purpose of EMF? Why do I need it? Why does oAW use it? What's the general idea behind it?<br />How these projects relate to each other?<br /><br />Another problem with Eclipse projects is content management. It seems to me that projects constantly split and move from one area to another.<br /><br />Not to mention GMF stuff. I haven't figured it out yet, but this is the only project that has a diagram explaining necessary steps in order to create editor. <br /><br />In order to get something from these projects you need to invest a lot of time or you need someone to coach you.Mad Prophethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17919396584255640769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-22278496042778345532009-05-13T16:53:00.000+02:002009-05-13T16:53:00.000+02:00This is a very insightful blog. I often emphasize...This is a very insightful blog. I often emphasize the fact that simplicity is in the eye of the beholder. When first I learned Java's generics I was horrified by the complexity, and I have a Ph.D. that focused on programming language design, but now it seems straight forward. All too often I read comments about EMF and I think, those very same comments apply to Java, or any number of other technologies, so I like the fact that your blog is about the more general aspect of complexity because this issue is not unique to EMF. For example, if you are going to do only one project with Java, is learning all of Java a good investment? I doubt it because Java too is a career choice...Ed Merkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05000982591510437551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-5893271599857289632009-05-12T23:00:00.000+02:002009-05-12T23:00:00.000+02:00What makes EMF so hard?? Part of the difficulty in...What makes EMF so hard?? Part of the difficulty in answering that question is that it depends on each individual's background. <br /><br />When I started learning EMF, I was starting from scratch. I was a embedded driver programmer, writing software for hardware. I knew nothing about eclipse and modeling, and only a very limited knowledge about things like design patterns and such. This of course made my learning curve extremely difficult.<br /><br />I don't think I'm a good person to ask that question. But with that said, when you want to improve documentation, you have to make assumptions about the audience's background, and at some point you have to draw a line.<br /><br />It comes down to the fact that EMF is designed to be a general purpose solution to solve a problem domain that is very difficult to generalize. <br /><br />If you are only going to use EMF on a single project, you are wasting your time. And even if you are using it on a small number of projects, you are probably still wasting your time.<br /><br />EMF is a career choice.<br /><br />EMF is not a project choice.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670061377266314588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-67255414709532491972009-05-12T18:24:00.000+02:002009-05-12T18:24:00.000+02:00So many in this discussion seem to claim that they...So many in this discussion seem to claim that they:<br /><br />1. Had a very hard time to understand the benefits and the functioning of modeling or EMF.<br /><br />2. Finally mastered all this pain and are what Michael calls expert users now.<br /><br /><B>Who of you can explain what exactly made it so hard?</B>I think we urgently need this specific kind of experience report in order to make things better. (I don't believe that the goal will be to make modeling or EMF better, but the marketing and documentation must certainly be enhanced).Eike Stepperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08095163031047060582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-42176007194493491622009-05-12T13:27:00.000+02:002009-05-12T13:27:00.000+02:00I think that Eclipse and these projects are just f...I think that Eclipse and these projects are just fantastic but there is a misunderstanding.<br /><br />Do you know that to train a good EMF developer you need more than 18 full time month ? I agree that this investment is very good but only if your job is 100% focused on modeling as research engineer. <br />The misunderstanding is coming from the eclipse foundation which is trying to promote the use of frameworks among developers and not to promote the use of plugins such as EclipseUML which are built on the top of open standards such as EMF. <br />Users are now convinced that if you want to model you need to directly use EMF, and don't buy anymore software from Eclipse plugin vendors. As a plugin vendor we invest now less into the Eclipse technologies and nobody is happy. Users needs incredible time just to create small applications and ISV are not anymore interested by this non profitable market.<br /><br />I don't know what to say except that if you want free technology then users should accept to pay the personal learning curve price. If you want to be immediately efficient then you have to pay for professional tools vendor which have invested in such technologies.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03164356219559248287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-4485753410052352472009-05-12T10:32:00.000+02:002009-05-12T10:32:00.000+02:00You have explained a complex problem in a simple w...You have explained a complex problem in a simple way.<br /><br />I feel that the documentation of eclipse technologies should be written the same way. <br /><br />I learnt GEF after putting lot of hard work. In reality GEF is an easy to learn framework. But the existing documentation slowed the learning process. I tried to learn BIRT, but failed.<br /><br />Most of the time what happens is, the technical engineers may not be good explainers;but the responsibility to write the documentation is given to them. <br /><br />Once the technical lead of a technology/framework is sensible enough to give responsibilities based on individual strengths, may be this issue can be solved.Madhuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05191409900046165475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-84202873267463536922009-05-12T10:18:00.000+02:002009-05-12T10:18:00.000+02:00You made some good points, but I have to add some ...You made some good points, but I have to add some comments ;)<br />If a software is too hard to learn for normal users it is not a good product and <B>has</B> to get a bad reputation. Easy adoption is an important requirement for APIs and frameworks its purpose is reuse.<br />As an "expert user", although I think the definition is not good, has to have ability to explain the technology in a way the "normal user" understands it, that's a point where the expert seperats hisself from the normal.<br />Your example is not well chosen. For a software developer learning new and complex technology is a MUST HAVE. You cannot build software products from scratch, you always have to use any third-party-technology. So the question is, where does the "normal" ends and where does the "expert" starts?<br />Complicated technology is no good technology and not worth to use it, I guess you mixed that with "complex".<br />TomTom Seidelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13994704031745066504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-16578232059007375742009-05-12T05:43:00.000+02:002009-05-12T05:43:00.000+02:00I think it is important for the expert user who wa...I think it is important for the expert user who want to build a new system to keep the normal user's needs at the forefront of everything they build. After all, if the normal user can not get the great technology to work then it is wasted technology. In my experience EMF is like that. All I need is a simple way to define Objects with attributes and get a code generator to build out simple classes with event notification, automatically, embedded in the setter methods. I like EMF's use of annotation in the comments to selectively disable code generation. I've never found the code for UI as useful.<br /><br />Thanks for the posting.Bryan Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05871649137025050612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17681521.post-43729122905239592042009-05-12T05:14:00.000+02:002009-05-12T05:14:00.000+02:00I really like the idea of combining normal and adv...I really like the idea of combining normal and advanced users in the documentation process. A requirements engineering that I worked with would always suggest using a smart ignoramus, that is a really smart person, ignorant of the domain. <br /><br />However, in practice this is also very hard. I have tried to be that normal user, but as you start down the path of writing documentation, you soon learn why things were done a certain way, and eventually you too become an expert users.Ian Bullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668098567506210626noreply@blogger.com